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Comments on: Bread and Wine http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine Frank thoughts on our times from the view of the Gospel. Sun, 20 May 2012 12:02:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Doug Meikle http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2365 Doug Meikle Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:28:52 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2365 Nancy, yes you are right about this. God works in the Old Testament for example to really imprint upon us the power of sacrifice not just by talking about in the abstract but in the blood spilled of bulls, goats, lambs, or doves. And I see this in the bread and wine too. There is something tangible, real, with taste texture etc. It is not just a spiritual thing obviously. Maybe we just need to accept the mystery of this and not get caught up by the metaphysics of it all. And, I think you got the theology right too. Nancy, yes you are right about this.

God works in the Old Testament for example to really imprint upon us the power of sacrifice not just by talking about in the abstract but in the blood spilled of bulls, goats, lambs, or doves. And I see this in the bread and wine too. There is something tangible, real, with taste texture etc. It is not just a spiritual thing obviously. Maybe we just need to accept the mystery of this and not get caught up by the metaphysics of it all.

And, I think you got the theology right too.

]]> By: Nancy http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2332 Nancy Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:03:38 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2332 Sidestepping the theology for a moment, the more I read my Bible the more I see that God goes to extreme lengths to make the tangible relational with Him: animal clothing for Adam and Eve, circumcision with Abraham, the Passover blood/lamb/bitter herbs/unleavened bread and Tabernacle details with Moses.... Jesus of course used the tangible such as mustard seeds, pearls, coins, water, oil, fishing nets, yeast, human touch, mud and spit, etc. in his parables and healing. As you know, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and gave it to his disciples saying "this is my body, which is for you." He took the cup saying this "is the new covenant in my blood". He specified that, because He has all authority, disciples should be made by baptism, in water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and teaching. As Frank wrote, Paul describes what these do and why they are to be treated sacredly. The story of the relentless infusion of the tangible with God, most obviously with Jesus becoming flesh and dwelling among us, is what sets Christianity apart from religions and spiritualities. Sidestepping the theology for a moment, the more I read my Bible the more I see that God goes to extreme lengths to make the tangible relational with Him: animal clothing for Adam and Eve, circumcision with Abraham, the Passover blood/lamb/bitter herbs/unleavened bread and Tabernacle details with Moses…. Jesus of course used the tangible such as mustard seeds, pearls, coins, water, oil, fishing nets, yeast, human touch, mud and spit, etc. in his parables and healing. As you know, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and gave it to his disciples saying “this is my body, which is for you.” He took the cup saying this “is the new covenant in my blood”. He specified that, because He has all authority, disciples should be made by baptism, in water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and teaching. As Frank wrote, Paul describes what these do and why they are to be treated sacredly. The story of the relentless infusion of the tangible with God, most obviously with Jesus becoming flesh and dwelling among us, is what sets Christianity apart from religions and spiritualities.

]]> By: Frank http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2316 Frank Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:15:31 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2316 ... and besides, this article is much more about the natural state of the bread and the wine, so you should be happy. … and besides, this article is much more about the natural state of the bread and the wine, so you should be happy.

]]> By: Frank http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2315 Frank Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:10:00 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2315 Doug, People have argued about this for a long time. On one hand we have the reductionists and on the other we have the spiritualizers. One group wants to squeeze the supernatural out of as much of Christianity as possible and the other group infuses mystery where there is none to be found. We will not settle this battle here. Bottom line is this: there are spiritual and mysterious elements that are part of the world that God has created. There is a part of Christianity that is supernatural even as God is outside of His creation. Jesus (echoed by Paul) used some powerfully mysterious language when instituting the Lord's Supper. There is nothing foolish about merely talking Him at His word. The Bread is His body, the Wine is His blood. Paul goes on to give some pretty strange warnings about eating and drinking to our peril if the bread and wine are nothing more than bread and wine. I used to think it was silly in the Nicene Creed to say that baptism was for the "remission of sin" ... until I saw that it was a quote from Acts. That was a little humbling. I really wanted baptism to merely be a symbolic act, and not an effectual means. You can't always get what you want ... I have learned to accept mystery. Doug,

People have argued about this for a long time. On one hand we have the reductionists and on the other we have the spiritualizers. One group wants to squeeze the supernatural out of as much of Christianity as possible and the other group infuses mystery where there is none to be found. We will not settle this battle here.

Bottom line is this: there are spiritual and mysterious elements that are part of the world that God has created. There is a part of Christianity that is supernatural even as God is outside of His creation. Jesus (echoed by Paul) used some powerfully mysterious language when instituting the Lord’s Supper. There is nothing foolish about merely talking Him at His word. The Bread is His body, the Wine is His blood. Paul goes on to give some pretty strange warnings about eating and drinking to our peril if the bread and wine are nothing more than bread and wine.

I used to think it was silly in the Nicene Creed to say that baptism was for the “remission of sin” … until I saw that it was a quote from Acts. That was a little humbling. I really wanted baptism to merely be a symbolic act, and not an effectual means. You can’t always get what you want …

I have learned to accept mystery.

]]> By: Doug Meikle http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2314 Doug Meikle Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:53:59 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2314 Matt, Frank, I just do not get the supernatural elements of the bread and wine. It seems to me that the bread and wine is just bread and wine still when we eat it and that's the way the bible talks about it. You guys know the arguments about this better than I do and I dont think that they are worth falling out over but I just dont see the power of the supernatural bread and wine argument. There is something in the taking of the physical bread and wine into our bodies that draws us closer to Jesus and reminds us physically of his presence - but help me out with this because I dont see anything more in this. (so, it is reveled, I am not much of a Lutheran, nor a Calvinist, I am Zwinglian!) Solo Deo Gloria! Matt, Frank, I just do not get the supernatural elements of the bread and wine.

It seems to me that the bread and wine is just bread and wine still when we eat it and that’s the way the bible talks about it. You guys know the arguments about this better than I do and I dont think that they are worth falling out over but I just dont see the power of the supernatural bread and wine argument. There is something in the taking of the physical bread and wine into our bodies that draws us closer to Jesus and reminds us physically of his presence - but help me out with this because I dont see anything more in this. (so, it is reveled, I am not much of a Lutheran, nor a Calvinist, I am Zwinglian!) Solo Deo Gloria!

]]> By: Pastor Matt http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2303 Pastor Matt Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:54:17 +0000 http://ancienttruthmodernsound.com/bread-and-wine#comment-2303 Frank wrote: As we celebrate the Lord’s Supper, may we keep in mind what bread and wine do for us in their natural state so that we can more fully appreciate what they do for us in their supernatural state. So, so, SO well said. This is why I love to have Frank Hart as my colleague. This is SO making it into a sermon very soon. Frank wrote:
As we celebrate the Lord’s Supper, may we keep in mind what bread and wine do for us in their natural state so that we can more fully appreciate what they do for us in their supernatural state.

So, so, SO well said. This is why I love to have Frank Hart as my colleague. This is SO making it into a sermon very soon.

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